Bullshit Map or (IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS)

A while ago I wanted to get a general idea of how the bullshit in Vancouver was distributed. So I created a simple little Google Map from the results of a few quick searches for nonsense alternative medicine. I called it ‘Bullshit’ and sent the link to a small group of friends who I thought might enjoy it. I basically left it at that and forgot about it.

Today, just over an hour ago, I got a message on Facebook from someone who found his business on my Bullshit map and was, understandably, displeased. He must have followed the link to my Google account, which is linked to my Facebook profile, where he sent me this:

Benjamin Newman 24 March at 15:06

I’m unsure why my business (pillars-of-health) is on your google map entitled “bullshit”… but I would like to kindly ask you to remove me. There are Federal defamation laws around doing things like this.

I have not met you, nor have you ever done business with me and so I am curious as to why I would end up on such a list/map.

Please remove me and remove the map or there may be further action taken in this case from my lawyer.

Thank you.
Ben

So I sent him a response:

Jesse Brydle 24 March at 16:23

Hi Ben,

I never sought your business out specifically. I constructed that map for personal use only and have never distributed it beyond a circle of close friends. It was created with a few simple Google searches for business in the Vancouver area promoting alternative health practices which I believe to be largely ineffective and/or fraudulent. I’ve had a quick look at your site, and I suspect Reiki was the reason for the match. I’d happily remove your business from my “map of bullshit” if you would do one of the following: stop offering services or advice based on Reiki, or send me a link to scientific evidence for the efficacy of Reiki. By ‘scientific’ I don’t mean testimonials, or a solid assurance that you know it works, or some excuse about how long it’s been around. I mean a properly controlled and blinded study from a peer reviewed journal. In the meantime, I’m happy to compromise. I’ve added a comment on the map clarifying what I mean by ‘bullshit’ and reassuring readers that my assessments aren’t meant to be taken as factual statements, merely opinions which have been overwhelmingly supported by the best evidence.

As I said, I had a quick read through your site, and I saw some pretty poor information there. The explanation of Reiki begins by stating that “energy is simply a frequency.” This is flat-out wrong, and frankly makes no sense. You can find the proper definition of energy in many places, including Wikipedia. You talk about light and sound being “frequencies.” Well, that’s part of it. The frequency isn’t the energy, it’s merely the frequency (colour for light, pitch for sound). To get the energy of a wave, you also need to know the amplitude and the speed. But waves aren’t the only form that energy comes in – there’s energy in chemical bonds, a compressed spring, a hot gas with molecules zipping around, etc.

You also offer a misguided explanation of Quantum Physics. You’re sort of right on the whole “small things get fuzzy” part, but those kinds of effects only apply at sizes smaller than the atom, which means it is not “the same for solids, liquids and gases” at all. Quantum Mechanics is a highly mathematical science that can’t be properly understood without an understanding of the underlying equations. It is certainly not an excuse to believe that anything weird is suddenly possible, or that fuzziness on a quantum scale means there are no ‘borders’ in whatever subject you want to talk about.

You go on to talk about chakras and meridians, which 400 years of anatomical study have failed to find any evidence for in any physical sense, and are only ever explained through subjective reports, which we know from psychology are intensely fraught with all kinds of biases and fallacies. I’m afraid there’s simply no good reason to believe in any of this stuff, and charging people to treat them on the basis of poor evidence is, in my opinion, highly irresponsible and dangerous. That’s why you’ve made it to my bullshit map.

Anyway, please either revise your site, or convince me that I’m wrong, and I will happily make changes to the map. I’ll not remove the map, nor will I be threatened by censorship. I really don’t think there are any grounds for a lawsuit, as I have created the map for personal use only, I have made no specific claims, and any insinuations are merely my opinion. But by all means, speak to your lawyer. If you’re familiar with libel lawsuits in the alternative health field, you’ve probably heard of Simon Singh’s case in Britain. He’s being sued by the British Chiropractic Association for rightly calling chiropractic adjustments a “bogus” treatment and the outcome so far is that chiropractors have been told to provide proper scientific evidence for all of their claims, and remove anything from their websites that is not supported by medical science. Wouldn’t that be amazing!

Kindest regards,
Jesse

P.S. I reserve the right to publicly share this and any further correspondence as I see fit.

As I said in the response, I also wrote the description of the Bullshit map, which had previously been blank.  It was a bit of a  ‘cover my ass’ thing, but mainly I hadn’t thought that many people would find the map, so I didn’t bother to offer any explanation. Ben’s message made me realize that there may be people stumbling across the map and not knowing what they’re looking at. By explaining its purpose and providing links, I think I have greatly increased the map’s utility to combat misinformation in Vancouver. Thanks Ben!

I’ll add any further responses I get to this post. In the mean time, if anyone who agrees with me and my map wants to head over there and rate or review it, I’d much appreciate.

—EDIT—

Haha! I just had a look at the existing comments on the map:

chanel Updated Jan 1
Hello Jesse,I found you via Canpages. Why do you call your listing “bullshit”? and have so many of them!
Remove my listing from you page immediatly and present your self in person (IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS) and explain it to my face on a Sat or Sun from 11 to 5 (COWARDS HIDE BEHIND THE INTERNET), An email reply is mandatory in cases of defamation without explanation (I HAVE NEVER MET YOU), there is a federal law against defamation. Your immediate action is now mandatory in this case.
From Chanel-owner of the – Granville Island Psychic Studio since 1996 http://www.psychicstudio.ca.

Pillars of Health Updated 2 hours ago
Jesse,

I’m inclined to agree with Chanel. It is defamation….

I have never met you either, and I’m unsure what the point of having this listing is….

I would like an explanation as well, so please contact me as well and remove my business name or there may be further action taken into this matter. Especially if all of the businesses on this map are contacted to show them what you are doing.
Ben

Why are threats and censorship always the first thing these people go to? If you believe you’re right, why not just explain it to me (IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS)? They must know on some level that they’re full of shit.

I hadn’t seen chanel’s comment until today, and I never took the “immediate action” he demanded, yet I still haven’t heard from any lawyer. Bring it on dude.

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~ by jbrydle on March 24, 2010.

61 Responses to “Bullshit Map or (IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS)”

  1. How do we get the bullshit map publically listed?

    How do we get it to the top of that list?

    😛

  2. I don’t know how the public listings work. I have quite a hard time finding my own map with any sort of Google search, yet these people are finding it on sites like Canpages. If anyone knows how the public Google Maps work, I’d be happy to make ‘Bullshit’ more professional and start promoting it.

  3. People seriously need to learn the difference between “defamation” and “opinion”. It’s not defamation to call something bullshit.

  4. Awesome Jesse. I think we should get you on CBC Radio’s ‘As it Happens’, 6.30-8pm, 690 AM. Canadian invents bullshit sniffer – threats from Psychic blokes, Reiki chaps, Craniosacral rubbing dudes ensue!

    I think if you google your business name, Canpages, Whois and other irrelevant fluff sites appear. I have a hard time finding my Billy Bishop google map too, these narcissists must really be trying to find themselves 🙂

  5. Kimbo’s right. As Penn & Teller point out in the very first “Bullshit!” episode if you call people “liars” and “thieves” you can get sued, but “motherfucker” and “asshole” is safe, as is “bullshit”.

    I say go ahead and promote it. Any attempt to censor or bully you will have the opposite effect and get more promotion of the idea that these businesses are bullshit.

  6. Great map, great idea! As a former alternative health professional, your response has my enthusiastic endorsement. Reiki is mysticism, not health care: it wasn’t believable to begin with, and it’s failed every fair test it (or anything like it) has ever been put to. The legal threats are total bollocks, just hot air. Are you aware that the Supreme Court of Canada recently made decisions that significantly add to the protection against lawsuit in cases just like this? You couldn’t have been sued for this before, and even less so now. Fortunately, in Canada, you’re allowed to call someones products or services “bullshit”!

  7. Hi Jesse,
    Wow, what a terrific idea. I have a YouTube channel with 200 videos, most of which are rants about so-called CAM.
    Keep up the good work.
    Regards,
    George

  8. Bravo sir! I tip my hat to you. That is amazing. Do you have the link for the map?

  9. Wow, I’m functionally retarded and did not see the link. My mistake.

  10. Calling it ‘bullshit’ is really being too polite about it.

  11. Ha, ha, ha. You opinionated shill against anything alternative & your foolish followers. I challenge you to a showdown if you think you’re so smart? Think you can handle it?

  12. You said the map is for “personal use” but you have knowingly linked from a very public blog. So we have established that you are liar.

    You give little reason for your sweeping generalizations and “bullshit” designations except that you read it on other skeptic web sites and believe it to be part of your inflatus .

    In just one of the sweeping nasty generalizations about a health treatment that you make, ie. homeopathy at the very least there is evidence that you have no basis for your prejudice. By the end of 2009, 142 RCTs of homeopathy had been published in peer-reviewed journals. In terms of statistically significant results, 74 of these trials were able to draw firm conclusions; 63 were positive. So to say that it is unscientific is not a good enough reason for your nastiness. There are enough scientists and researchers who would disagree with you. So we have established that you are also a bigot.

    I wonder if you would kindly give us your place of employment, (although I realize that you may be seriously unemployed) since many of us reading this would not want to go to any establishment that would employ a bigot and a liar. In fact many of us would want to create a map designating it as a place that a liar and bigot works. Why not give us this information? Fair is fair.

  13. Wow the woo crowd are very vituperative today. Maybe they should have come out to ‘Boobquake Vancouver shakes. Lo and behold no Vancouver earthquakes despite assurances by an Iranian cleric that immodestly dressed women cause earthquakes. It was not the males of Vancouver’s Finest Hour though; oglers and cameras far outnumbered the Boobquakers, many of whom saw the crowd and decamped to the bar! A great time was had by all.

  14. Where’s my comment? These two last comments weren’t here before I sent mine. Is there a problem?

  15. Here it is again in case my first one was lost.

  16. Why does the screen go white & I’m directed to a different link? Is it the links I’m sending stopping it?

    I get sent here;

    https://inflatusveritas.wordpress.com/wp-comments-post.php

  17. That one got through.

  18. Let’s try this in parts. Maybe it’s because it’s too long.

    Okay Jessie, you didn’t take the cowardly way out, as of yet anyway, by deleting my comment so here begins the challenge.

    You’re even allowed to cherry pick your own counter on this first part of this challenge. Choose any one of the victims of the smear job on your map. Then send us legit links to court procedures & such truth that actually occurred as I have with one of your three deceptive references used against good people. Show us they measure up to the facts I’m presenting here.

    Your silence on this matter will say it all & ad hominem attacks in place of sincere reply will also admit defeat on your part.

    Quackwatch has been effectively discredited & so has the founder as the evidence shows.

  19. “Failed MD Stephen Barrett”

    “What kind of man would drop out of the medical profession and dedicate his life to STOPPING advancement in the health sciences?”

    http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm

  20. “Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court” Cases”

    http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html

  21. “Is Stephen Barrett a Quack?”

    http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html

  22. “Quackwatch Founder Stephen Barrett loses Major Defamation trial in Hometown”

    http://www.mysticgateway.org/pages/watbarrett.html

  23. “Quackbuster Stephen Barrett: “Not an Expert,” Declares Judge!”

    http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/editorial/quack.htm

  24. P.S. I reserve the right to publicly share this and any further correspondence as I see fit.

  25. One more on the quack himself.

    http://tinyurl.com/243roem

  26. Wow, the comments really jumped recently. My name is Ian McLean and I am one of Jesse’s friends. I’m sure Jesse and others will jump in here and give thorough debate, but I thought I would start it off. As a quick background, I am a masters student studying behavioral ecology and evolution, with one published paper in a peer reviewed journal and two more on the way. I say this not to brag but to lend some support to the fact that I am familiar with the peer review system and the way that science tries to work. I am no where near as knowledgeable about alternative medicine as Jesse or his friends or probably Marsha or sharpSkeptic. Nonetheless, I would like to weigh in.

    Marsha, I am unfamiliar with your beef with Jesse, and am wondering why you have linked to several articles on Stephen Barrett. I only know what I’ve briefly read on Wikipedia and the URLs you’ve provided, but they seem to be in quite stark contrast. While I don’t doubt the potential for Wikipedia to be flawed, I also question the URLs you’ve provided, as several of them seem to be no more than blogs or forums. For example, the quackpotwatch url seems to be little more than a anti Barrett website that champions alternative medicine. While I cannot begin to counter the claims against Barrett, the website does seem to be fraught with inaccuracies in regards to what alternative medicine is and how it is defined. It paints alternative medicine as being the holy savior of humanity, holding all the cures and secrets to vitality, without any of the drawbacks and evils carried by “western medicine.” That’s all nice and good but I find it hard to take a website seriously that doesn’t really provide valid references and generally seems to be one man’s overzealous (and somewhat inaccurate) opinions. The main beef of the raysahelian url seems to be that Barrett is not necessarily wrong about what he says but that he doesn’t target pharmaceutical companies and westernized medicine procedures, opting to only go after alternative medicines. That really doesn’t prove Barrett wrong, it just shows that he might be a subjective and narrow minded dick. I’ll give the author due credit, pharmaceutical companies have committed crimes and falsified data in the past, which has led to harm, injury and death to people. So yeah, essentially, western medicine is not immune to fraud or lazy/bad scientists. Same goes for science in general. Fraudulent douchebags pop up all the time, and if/when they are found out, their work is often discredited, and articles are retracted from journals, and they are, in some cases, jailed for their fraud. As for the remaining URLs, they seem to be just stories about how Barrett isn’t a real doctor, or has been discredited in court, etc. Some seem to be from reasonable sources (Canadian Lyme Disease … ok?) and others seem to be from forums or random websites without any semblance of credibility but that have, nonetheless, a particularly positive stance toward alternative medicine, and somewhat dubious statements (“Medicine as we know it, is on the brink of destruction. Healing is where the heart is. The future of Medicine is going to be based upon what Edison and Socrates tried to tell us long ago: “We are what we eat” along with what ancient texts, including the Bible, have told us for centuries: Our Creator (Nature) has supplied us with all the medicines we will ever need. Now, if we can stop the corruption of our environment by monied interests, heck, Paradise isn’t too far off.” – this seems to be one person’s random opinion that lacks anything to back it up, short of the medical expertise of Edison and Socrates, as well as the bible and nature (you gotta wonder why, if nature has all the cures, why it would even go through the hassle of making the problems to begin with)). Ultimately, I’m left wondering what several comments of URL’s trashing Stephen Barrett has to do with anything … at all? Trashing Stephen Barrett does nothing to help legitimize alternative medicines. All it does is show that Stephen Barrett is potentially a fraudulent dick.
    I’m assuming that Marsha and sharpSkeptics’ comments come as a result of their businesses being put on Jesse’s bullshit map (if I’m wrong in this regard, and you are but noble champions of truth, with nothing to lose (business?) by people reading the bullshit map, than please correct me). If you would be so kind as to state what your businesses are, so that we could have more in depth conversations about those particular alternative practices that you belong to and preach/defend. I’m assuming that, based on the post, sharpSketic has something to do with homeopathy. I have a loose understanding of what homeopathy is but based on my limited education in chemistry, physics and molecular biology, I would tend to believe that it is not going to work (any more often than would be reasonable given a placebo effect). That being said, you claim that there are positive results for homeopathy. Firstly, I’m a bit confused as to what RCT stands for? Secondly, out of 142 trials, 74 were able to draw conclusions and 63 were positive. That’s very interesting. Could you provide a URL to where I could find out more about these results? It’s just that I’ve critiqued and reviewed enough papers to know that a lot of experiments get done and published that have poor designs, poor statistical analyses and overreaching conclusions. I would also be interested in the journals that they come from, as saying it is a peer reviewed journal really doesn’t mean much considering that there are many journals that exist, and that anyone can start a journal with like minded peers who then favourably review papers for them (hell, there are creationist journals that do quite well but, that is for another conversation). My concern regarding homeopathy and positive results is that western medicine tends to latch onto, in most cases anyway, whatever works. So, to find that it is not common practice, despite there being 63 positive results, leaves me a little suspicious. You’ll have to excuse me, it’s just that I don’t generally believe everything that people say on blog comment postings without a way to verify who they are or at least what they are telling me is true, and not some attempt to further their own, potentially flawed, interests.
    I guess in closing, if you are on Jesse’s bullshit map, then you need to provide evidence that you shouldn’t be on there. Unfortunately, in the arena that is Jesse’s blog, this evidence must be peer reviewed scientific journal articles that can demonstrate, with properly used statistics and designs, that your alternative medicine claims hold some merit of truth. They can’t be anecdotal evidence. Saying that a patient you had was cured by homeopathy doesn’t help. It’s nice. It might be true. Could just be the placebo effect, but you might be on to something. So if there isn’t proper evidence that holds up to rigorous scientific testing, then go do a study. You will win a nobel prize for medicine and save countless lives if you can show that homeopathy works. And if you’re too humble and don’t want all the fame, then contact some medical professionals and researchers, and work with them … they’ll be happy to win the nobel and take the credit … believe me … scientists are usually happy to take credit for great achievements. So I’ll get my pretty self out of the way and let you titans duke it out (I may comment again if I feels like doings so!).

  27. Hello Killbotrix. I enjoyed your comment as it was fair & void the usual mean spirited nature those like me usually encounter as we work to help save the children. Thank you very much for that, it was appreciated.

    I wish I had more time this day to go into all you bring up that I’d love to cover but I have prior commitments first.

    I will be back as soon as I can to see if Jessie takes the challenge but for now I will try to answer your main questions. Maybe since you’re his friend you could send him a message at his Facebook page & let him know his attention is requested here?

    Actually, I’m pretty sure he knows already & can’t wait to get in here to show us what he has to bring to this table.

    I am not one of the business owners. I am here to defend them. I know little about alternatives such as homeopathy but I know the good people involved are telling the truth & those opposing them are mainly shills against anything or anyone alternative & work to protect the profit of those they represent.

    Oh & as for Reiki that Jessie makes fun of, I can tell you first hand of it’s wonders but Jessie would just call me a liar, wouldn’t he?

    Who I am is an outraged Grandmother who works to educate our people who have been duped on the atrocity of wayyyy too many vaccinations, harmful drugs & other toxins harming our children which has created a huge adult population of sick & diseased people who usually get to go to early graves. The trade off from childhood disease to what we now face was not a fair trade at all. We have proved it but our voices have been ignored & stifled as was usual.

    That rise in the sick state of our nation has been right in step with the increase in vaccinations & other toxins let loose on us through the years.

    Vaccinations we’re meant for good in the beginning but went real bad due to greed & too many looking the other way.

    The mad scientist puppets in white coats & their controllers have been exposed & will now be falling in on itself.

    All the many new vaccinations they have just created & all the harmful drugs we see advertisements on all over the networks will now cease due to public awareness rising to the point it has. Their greed has finally given them up.

    “They can have people take vaccination against serious disease seriously.

    Or, they can sell people dangerous and unnecessary vaccines against less dangerous illnesses and have people lose all faith in vaccination.

    They can’t have both.”

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what’s been going on & when shills defend big pHARMa for crimes against humanity by not speaking out in outrage against them to go after alternatives, instead, as they do & that says it all.

    The pHARMS have to admit error & clean house. We must force them back to the original purpose that actually has our well being in mind.

    We have so much evidence I could fill this comment section until it became a book if I had the time.

    Many good doctors & scientists have been trying to tell us these truths for many years. A lot of doctors & good people in the medical field are speaking out today & writing many articles & their numbers are growing, thank goodness. They will be among the heroes that save us all in the end.

    Before I sign off for today I will leave another post after this one where you can see what these wise voices have said but were ignored until now.

    No more ignoring those voices because they have become many & are getting louder. “Very” loud because the parents & citizens are on the warpath that “will” be taking down the criminals responsible.

    By the way, speaking of criminals. How about that top researcher/scientist Poul Thorsen? They say he had little to nothing to do with that study that claimed no connection between autism & vaccinations, which is a right out lie. He probably saw this all coming & ran away with all that money.

    Maybe he saw where it was written in many places throughout cyberspace that they had better take their blood money & run. It was written, “They better run while they can because, metaphorically speaking, the parents & citizens have gone for the pitch forks, tar & feathers & will have that court (no more kangaroo courts) that holds the guilty accountable in the case of, “Children & Their Well Being” vs “Error, Greed & Cover Up”

    Hell, all anyone has to do is look up, “faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them” to see the full scope & this has been past track record for a very long time. Thorsen was smart & realized the gig’s up & ran.

    Here’s just a little on the most recent that was exposed on the news networks, too;

    Dr. Scott Reuben, a researcher, just admitted in court to faking dozens of studies for Pfizer, Merck;

    http://tinyurl.com/ycbnhra

    It’s become common practice for drug companies to support fraudulent studies & they openly supported Dr. Reuben’s research & in fact, paid him to keep on fabricating them.

    Then this just in, too, “GlaxoSmithKline deliberately hid evidence of Avandia harm, says Senate report”

    (This investigative report also reveals that GSK engaged in the intimidation of physicians…)

    http://tinyurl.com/ybxdyrw

    Vaccinations did not save us & there’s mountains of evidence to that fact. We live a lot longer, yes, as the evil Dr. Offit just said yesterday on that Frontline documentary called “The Vaccine War”. But that’s not due to vaccinations as he & his cohorts want us to beLIEve. Death from disease had declined even before vaccinations came on the scene.

    Where has all the common sense gone? Was the brainwashing & conditioning so effective that people are this blind they now aren’t able to compute 2+ 2 anymore?

    As for why I went into the facts of the site Quackwatch & it’s founder. Jessie used four or five references & sources in his deceptive determination as his site shows. I will tear apart his other sources when the time’s right after he does the same thing to just one of those he’s trying to discredit. Or I should say, after he tries to.

    I want to explain to those duped like him, actually he may not be duped at all & be one who purposely works to fool enough of our people in order to keep up with the status quo & cover up which only sustains the greedy rich & puts our children at risk as the guinea pigs & cash cows we all are.

    We’re not going to be guinea pigs or cash cows anymore & we’re not cattle either. That herd mentality crap has got to stop. The sheeple have to wake up now & become people.

    When enough of us become activists & wake up more people, we can stop those like Jessie from succeeding in fooling enough of them in order to continue the cover up that holds us back from that much needed road to recovery.

    That road can begin when both worlds of conventional medicine & alternatives comes together & integrates but those like Jessie are holding us back thus keeping our children in harms way.

  28. DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.”
    Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
    and Drug Administration

    “The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
    ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation.”
    Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease.”
    Dr’s H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)

    “All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
    into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia…Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia.”
    Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics

    “Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people…in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated.”
    Professor George Dick, London University

    “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”
    Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
    there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
    accurately…the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
    deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use.”
    Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)

    “Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
    contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose.”
    Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)

    With reference to Smallpox;

    “Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
    ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine…Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end.”
    Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

    “Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
    susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated.”
    Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)

    “It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus – and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it.”
    Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”
    Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

    With reference to Whooping Cough;

    “There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence.”
    Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here’s Health, March 1980)

    “My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
    nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others.”
    Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine…it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage..”
    Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)

    With reference to Polio;

    “Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country.”
    Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA

    “No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
    children”
    Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN’T SAVE US

    HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES

    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

    WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE

    WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL

    WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES

    THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTION

    HEALTH – THE ONLY IMMUNITY

    THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN – AUSTRALIA’S HEALTHIEST KIDS

  29. Marsha. Seriously. Shut the fuck up. This is childish. You seem to have no idea whatsoever how to form an argument or think critically. I’m not going to debate you, I’m not going to take any challenges. If you really want to debate this stuff, I suggest you educate yourself. You can find a critical thinking course in any continuing education program through your local school board or college, and it will teach you about things like logical fallacies, how to form a cogent argument, and how to analyse evidence and minimize bias.

    Way to go, you can find a hodge podge collection of links that suggest a particular expert may have a conflict of interest. So? Does that refute his points? There are shrieking idiots claiming just about every expert who disagrees with their particular flavour of woo is a corrupt shill for some nonexistant conspiratorial organization. So you don’t like Stephen Barrett or Paul Offit… Can I offer you Steve Novella? Harriet Hall? Edzard Ernst? Ben Goldacre? “THEY EAT BABIES! THEY ARE PAID BY THE ILLUMINATI! MY FRIEND WHO LIVES IN A BOX SAYS THEIR EXPERIMENTAL METHODOLOGIES ARE NOT UP TO THE INDUSTRY STANDARD! THE WORD PHARMACY HAS THE WORD HARM IN IT! CHANGE MY DIAPER!”

    No thanks.

    Experts, doctors, and scientists aren’t credible enough for you, so who do you choose to listen to? Jenny McCarthy? Again, you’re being childish. The issue isn’t credibility, the issue is that you’ve convinced yourself that you’re right, and you’ll clutch at any straws that seem to support your presupposed beliefs, no matter how ridiculous or juvenile they are. Look up confirmation bias. You’re full of it.

    I have no doubt that you care about children. I’m sure you believe what you’re saying very strongly, and I do feel a little bad for insulting someone who is clearly so devoted (but only a little). If you really care, though, don’t you owe it to the children to make sure you have your facts straight? Is your own belief really good enough to wager against the lives of children? You realize that diseases like measles are coming back, and that they WILL kill small children if they aren’t suppressed again, don’t you? If there’s even a chance that vaccines are the best way to fight measles, then wouldn’t you be grossly irresponsible if you didn’t consider that possibility as a reasonable course of action? I know you mean well, but I think your well-intentioned ignorance is leading to the suffering of children. And that makes me angry.

    I’m sorry if this isn’t satisfying to you, but honestly, engaging with you would be a waste of my time and yours. I don’t think you understand logic and argumentation well enough to have a mature back-and-forth. Prove me wrong and I’ll reconsider. Until you have some actual evidence, as Killbotrix outlined, rather than a list of bullshit links and irrelevant quotations, please go away and stop cluttering up my comments.

    P.S. I never deleted or disallowed any comments. All of your inanity above is either due to a WordPress glitch, or your own inability to use your computer.

  30. Yes please STFU Marsha – you are cluttering up my Inbox too with your rubbish!

  31. LOL. You guys always resort to ad hominem attacks because you have nothing else. You copped out “big time” just like I knew you would, Ha, ha, ha, ha. I can’t form an argument? Chuckle, chuckle, you mean you can’t argue with the truth, don’t you?

    What a cop out & a chicken shit you are, Jessie. Good to know you don’t control the comments so you have no choice but to see the ugly hard core truth about yourself up close & personal. Too bad you just lost face in front of all your little fiends. That wasn’t a typo, by the way.

    I have bigger & more important fish to fry but I’ll be back.

    In the mean time, how’s it feel to be the big loser? lol.

  32. Ok, while I do quite enjoy a fellow potty nouth and big mouth…do you know what the fuck you’re talking about? Just curious. I am a former sceptic who thought that any kind of natural remedy was crap devised by anti-meds people. I kep that chip on my shoulder for years and it kept me from helping my kids when it would have been most beneficial. I finally decided to read up on the actual scienctific research published by Doctors…Doctors whom I might add also practice mainstream medicine and prescribe medications. Wow did my world change! I learned the why of how the alternatives can work. Foods can be used as medicines or poisins in our bodies. Why is this a suprise? What happens when you consume alcohol? It’s a food that certainly does negative things to your body and brain (even though they might be fun). So I decided ‘what do I have to lose, I’m going to try some of these interventions with my kids and myself’. Guess what? They work. End of story, they work. I’ve seen diet and supplements do for my children ina few months what 10 years of medications and therapies couldn’t do. It’s funny and fun to be a big mouth sometimes, but you should have the brains to back up what you speak.

  33. Can you restate your original argument? I claim you didn’t make a cogent argument, and you laugh. What’s the argument?

    You say I make ad hominems by saying I don’t want to debate someone who can’t form an argument, then you say I’m a chicken shit. That’s projection. It’s also a failure to understand what ad hominem is. For example, when you refute my arguments by questioning the credibility of my sources without addressing any of the actual points? That’s ad hominem.

    You offer me a grand challenge, and post a total of SIXTEEN comments, two of which are friggin’ enormous, and then when I say you aren’t worth debating, you tell me you have bigger fish to fry? Sounds like an attempt to save face to me.

    This is exactly what I’m talking about. You’ve already made your conclusions, and no amount of debate is going to have any effect, because you’ll employ psychological defences and commit cognitive and logical fallacies to combat the dissonance. I’m not interested in engaging any further. I’ll allow you your ‘out’. Go fry your fish and give my comment thread a rest.

  34. Les, what kinds of alternative remedies are you talking about? I’m totally willing to accept the efficacy of ‘nonstandard’ treatments, and I don’t think it’s at all controversial to say that natural products can have real clinical effects. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, etc.

    But it’s a long way from saying some natural remedies have some effect to saying that all new age handwavy treatments like reiki or homeopathy don’t need experimental data to back them up.

    If you’ve got some examples of what you’re talking about, I’d enjoy hearing about them. But do be careful of the placebo traps as well. Expectations, confirmation bias, regression to the mean, and other effects can make a treatment look like it’s working when it really doesn’t have quite the impact you think. To say “I just know it works” is fine, but that’s not going to convince anyone by itself. If the clinical data suggest otherwise, then I’d have to go with that rather than your conviction, no matter how strong.

    (by the way, the ‘anonymous’ post above is me)

    • Ha ha ha, woops, sorry Jesse. I’ve been doing a lot of antibiomedical articles and such over the past few days. Your map was posted on one and I skimmed over it and thought it was more of the same. Your certainly entitled to your opinion, and I realize that you originally made the map for friends… but Nietzsche says “You have your way. I have my way.As for the “right” way and the “correct” way , and the “only way” it does not exist”. I’ve learned through hard experience, never say never. Don’t knock it til you try it

  35. This battle is EPIC! I guess I would like to weigh in on some of Marsha’s comments.
    1)You say that you don’t own one of the businesses but want to defend the people on there who you know and know are telling the truth. While they may believe that what their doing is correct and working, that doesn’t necessarily make it true. You can’t underestimate the placebo effect. It’s a very important thing that can occur, and while a positive result may occur, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t just a placebo effect or essentially the power of suggestion. Take for example your own experience with Reiki. You say Jesse would just call you a liar if you told him of the first hand wonders that you experienced from it. I don’t doubt that you may have experienced some benefits from it, and Jesse probably feels the same way. But anecdotal evidence, as I stated before, does not necessarily make something scientifically factual. For example, let’s say that I prayed to God everyday that I wasn’t eaten by a tiger. Live for twenty years without getting eaten by a tiger, and I could, in theory, claim the existence of God based on the fact that I haven’t been eaten by a tiger. However, it’s probably more likely that given that fact that I live in a country without a native wild tiger population, and given the fact that I have never been to a country with a native tiger population or even really seen a tiger, ever, then it probably stands to reason that praying to God isn’t the reason that I haven’t been eaten by a tiger. Doesn’t disprove God but it doesn’t prove it either. That’s essentially what you telling me about Reiki does. I don’t doubt that you have experienced benefits, but as long as your open to experiencing benefits, and as long as you can believe that it’s working, it’s more likely to work. That’s kind of a power of suggestion/placebo effect thing. You think it’ll work so you perceive a benefit. Show me a properly controlled and designed experiment with a large enough sample size that shows a statistically significant result for Reiki and I’ll believe you. And Jesse will too. That’s all any of the skeptics or scientists on this blog want. And that’s something that alot of alternative medicines can’t do. There always seems to be something wrong with the experiment or the design or the conclusions are too overreaching, etc.

    Now you say that you don’t know alot about alternative medicines but you know the people and trust them. That doesn’t mean that they are right or that what they’re doing works. You could say the same to me about doctors, how I don’t know alot about medicine but I trust them. And you’re right. But I trust doctors because what they are doing, in the majority of cases, is backed up by tightly controlled and expertly designed experiments that have shown what works and what doesn’t. It doesn’t mean that all doctors are perfect and it doesn’t mean that all scientists are truthful. You mentioned a doctor who worked for Pfizer who reported fradulent data. I’ll take your word on that. It’s terrible and wrong. And he should have his medical license taking away and should be imprisoned. And here’s another story that you might find really interesting: Dr Andrew Wakefield recently had his medical license taken away and his papers retracted from their journals after it was found that he falsified data, ignored data that contradicted his hypotheses, performed unethical procedures on children involved in his study, was being compensated by outside groups with a particular interest that he attempted to validate, etc. It sounds terrible, right? Also, Andrew Wakefield was the lead author on the first paper to show a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. He was compensated by parents who thought there might be a link between the vaccine and autism. He ignored results that went contradictory to his hypothesis that the MMR vaccine caused autism and he made vastly overreaching conclusions based on small sample size. His study has been retracted and refuted by subsequent studies. There is no evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism. But because of his fraudulent behavior, you are now seeing rises in measles, mumps and rubella in areas where there numbers have been low in the past.

    Jesse is not a shill for the medical industry or big pharma. He receives no compensation or other benefits from them for his advocacy or skeptisism. While you may have a point that perhaps too many vaccinations might be a bad thing, there doesn’t seem to be much scientific evidence or studies to back it up. Once again, people saying this, regardless of their expertise or credibility, does not make it so. You need hard evidence that is scientifically significant.

    I would like to comment more but it seems that most of the rest of your reply kind of goes off into a hate filled rant against western medicine and pharmaceutical companies and Jesse. You provide many quotes from, what appears to be quite distinguished people, but not knowing the context that they come from, I can’t really use them. For all I know, the quotes come from talks that actually support vaccines but are rallying against some misuse that is not evident from the quote.

    At the end of the day, I need to ask, are you really here for a genuine debate in which you might change your mind or are you here just to yell your point until everyone stops talking? Not to seem offensive, it’s just that if you’re not open to changing your mind, then there is no point in arguing with you. You seem very angry at the medical industry and the pharmaceutical companies, and you seem to have gone to the extreme of they are evil and wrong and no good can come from them. That isn’t the case. Yes, doctors and pharmaceutical companies may, on occasion, do things that are wrong and fraudulent and illegal. And yes, there may even be commonplace practices that are wrong and unjust. But, that doesn’t mean we should abandon the logic and reason behind them for untested alternatives. Jesse made a good point that there could be benefits to natural medicines or methods. But until you have the evidence to back it up, beyond anecdotes and mystical new agey beliefs in the power of nature and gaia and the human spirit, then you can’t support untested methods over the scientifically proven methods. Doing that puts people at risk, especially if they choose those untested methods over other proven methods. I believe that you do genuinely care about people’s health and well being. So prove us wrong, using the scientific method.

  36. Here is link for andrew wakefield wikipedia page … you can look at the references below for original sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

  37. Wow what a diatribe from Marsha. I think there’s a good possibility she’s not stable emotionally. There is no sense to her statements; my suggestion would be to ignore her. I never thought I’d need to create a folder so my Inbox did not OD on InFlatus Veritas!

  38. Hi Folks,
    Wish I had the you-know-whats to start one of these for my town. Wow, if this happened all over…..
    Regards,
    George

  39. Just checking back to see if Jessie or any of his friends had anything concrete & substantial to bring to the table. I see the pretense of saying I made no sense is the straw being grasped at. It is hard to top so much truth when all you have is deception. I knew that was too much information for you to handle & you went on overload. I knew you had nothing & you showed everyone watching that fact. lol. Losers & cowards copped out as I figured you would. Bye chicken shit Jessie. You proved you’re just full of it as are your ignorant fiends. No typo there.Go ahead now & whine & complain using your ad hominem attacks which is all you’re good at. It must suck to be you guys.

    • “No typo there.Go ahead now & whine & complain using your ad hominem attacks which is all you’re good at. It must suck to be you guys.”

      That’s not what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem is a logical fallacy that states an argument to be false because of a character flaw in the person making it. For example, “Jesse is wrong because he’s a bigot”.

      You’re thinking of an insult. An insult is not an ad hominem. An insult would be “Losers & cowards copped out as I figured you would. Bye chicken shit Jessie.”

      Just saying.

      You might want to look up “irony” too.

  40. My name is spelled “Jesse” without the ‘i’.

  41. Aren’t there better causes you could dedicate your considerable ego to than picking a fight with alternative medicine practitioners? Like, I dunno, look into the bullshit coverup going on in the Gulf of Mexico right now. Expose the coverup going on by BP, the media, the US government and the health and environmental consequences of spraying dispersant while dispersing lies. There’s some science for ya.
    Don’t like Reiki eh? Feel free to ignore it. Actually, no. Go get a treatment. You just may be amazed at how you feel. I live with a Reiki Master who makes no outrageous claims about efficacy whatsoever, but whose steady clientele understand its relaxing and rejuvenating benefits. Even the most skeptical people end up admitting that something is going on there (and enjoying the process as well). Call it placebo if you like. Like the placebo I get from dancing my ass off at a good concert. Oh, but those damn music therapists, how dare they make such claims about efficacy! Let people go about their businesses, trust the public to make up their own minds and stop being such as know-it-all jackass!…PS: your fonts suck.

  42. […] you have not yet had a change, check out Vancouver’s Bullshit Map, a wonderful (partial) listing of businesses who practice alternative medicine and other […]

  43. May I point out that among other fraudulent medical practices, vaccination has never been proven to prevent anything apart from health, sanity and common sense.People who believe in it use it at their own risk, as do people who use Reiki, homeopathics or herbal and other natural/alternative medicines. I don’t tell anyone what they can or can’t use, but neither do I want anyone to tell me what healing modality I want to make use of. If someone wants chemotherapy to treat their cancer, that’s up to them; if I want to chew apricot kernels or get Reiki to cure cancer, that’s up to me. Ever heard of freedom of choice and the right to make an informed choice? As adults, we should be free to make choices based on our research and not be dictated to be corrupt entities such as the FDA.I consider censorship in health matters utterly wrong and resent efforts by a nanny state to restrict our choices in health matters while at the same time systematically poisoning babies and children with neurotoxic vaccines and poisoning our water supplies with neurotoxic and carcinogenic fluoride. What a mad, mad world! It’s all about the f****ng money!

  44. I meant to say that the darkness of this website seems to reflect the Dark Ages mentality of its owner.

  45. Hello Jesse,

    I met Fred Bremmer at #TAMOz and he was showing off this Bullshit map. Absolutely loved the idea. I recently followed up on it and Fred sent me this link which lead back to the map. Giving it the quick once over I sat down yesterday morning and spent half an hour starting my local one. So, I present to you the Bullshit Health and Wellness in New Zealand map. I’ve focused on the city I’m currently living in so far, but I’m about to travel the country a bit so will add to it as I go.

    I’m also the founder of NZ Skeptics in the Pub. We’ve got 4 (soon to be 5) branches going so far and a mail list for the organisers. I put the word out on that list last night and have my first collaborator already. Auckland should start getting pins soon.

    Great job. Hope more of these start popping up.

    Regards,
    Gold

  46. oh you poor motherfuckers and assholes! (just to keep in your terms).

    Sure none of you have or will ever have the credentials, respect, relevance, and a very long of etc… as the famou Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center at New York, yes not like you all, useless bastards, it is working for the sick people since the 18 century.

    Will you dare to show your tiny balls and go tell them in their face, to the doctors, to the nurses, to the dying kids face that the reiki courses and therapy they have been giving since before you grow hair are bullshit?

    No?, oh come on you chevalier of none of your business, where are your marbles? Why not pick one who already has a legal office working instead of random granmas?

    what is you big point, getting science to verify your stupidity? sorry, reality?

    wake up and do something for your society even if it is removing yourself from the gene pool.

    Also do you remember Newton, well he was WRONG! as proved by Einstein, I bet you know who they where.

    So shut up and clarify your pathetic ignorance by means of reseach, and like you beloved scientists, endure the challenges of experimental verification of your hipothesys or else stop projecting yourself upon others, and gladly accept that you are not but a moronic bullshit yourself!

    Love and punches in your face!

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